Blind obedience? It is truly 'blind obedience' to be ignorant of something and to follow it simply to be one of the crowd. I doubt those who know the Catholic faith are blind about what they have freely chosen to follow. You appear to be upset because they believe the doctrine that they do know about and act accordingly in their lives. According to even your idea of freedom, are they not free to so believe?

You are upset that they believe and defend the church's doctrine. Since GU is touted as being a 'catholic' institution it is eminently fair to demand that it actually BE catholic, and that involves this defense of doctrine you abhor. I do wish that GU would cease spouting about it's 'catholicity' when it turns around and renounces it's allegiance to the church and it's teachings.

Barb

Barb, you comment a lot on The Hoya's website about Georgetown policy. Who are you? Do you even have a formal relationship with the university? If so, what is it? Should we assume that you are an irrelevant gadfly?

Actually, I am a CATHOLIC debating about a so-called CATHOLIC institution. Do I have a vested interest in the school? I do believe so. If the students leave the school claiming to be catholics when they have renounced Her doctrines, I will of course have an interest in that. Truth in advertising folks! Just drop the claim to anything catholic and I will be more than happy to make myself absent.

Oh, you can thank Professor Lance for introing me to these boards. Found the link on Pewsitters.com.

I am happy to see on those other posts an overwhelming loyal response to the Professor's allegations.

Barb

Barb,

Thanks. It's great to know that you are imputing your beliefs on a place that you have likely never even visited, let alone attended or worked at. Here's a tip: Before you pass judgment on our university - as you have been so fond of doing on this website - why don't you bother actually getting a degree or, at the very least, taking a few classes here? Your view of Georgetown is partial at best, and you are in no way qualified to comment on the intricacies of daily life here. I suggest you go back to whatever website you previously frequented. It's evident that you aren't a part of our community and, as such, you don't belong on this website as a frequent commentator. Personally, I'd prefer that Georgetown drop the Catholic title. I think having to associate with people on the far end of Catholicism like yourself hurts the educational mission of the university (yes, this is a university -- NOT a church or seminary). But, regardless of whether or not we do, your arrogance in imputing your judgments upon this university as a whole with such limited knowledge of it is rather disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Barb:

As a tried and true member of "our community" (to quote Who is Barb?) I'd like to express my thanks for you contributing to these boards and my encouragement for your continued participation in the debate and commentary.

Reading your comments over the last few days, I'd be lying if I said I agreed with everything you (or some of your compatriots) wrote. But I can also state with utter veracity that I've appreciated the argumentation, willingness to engage, and various perspectives that you've brought to the electronic table.

Last I checked, one of the hallmarks of the vaunted "university" that Who is Barb? so exhorts is the presence of open fora for engagement, discussion, debate, and disagreement. Hopefully, by the time this fellow hoya is done with his education, he'll (or she'll) understand that such open fora don't typically come with an institutional 'hall pass' or a precedent necessary condition of 'I pay tuition'. How parochial and un-Georgetown to suggest otherwise.

In my experience, it typically the side with the least ability to engage in dialogue, the weakest points, or the most impotent mind that retreats to doctrines of 'restriction', 'exclusion' etc. That says things like "it's evident that you aren't a part of our community and, as such, you don't belong on this website as a frequent commentator." ... blech. Isn't writing like this the hallmark of arrogance and judgment imputing?

Let's see, the whole religion is based on a mid 30's unmarried Jewish guy who died at a time when he was at least 20 years past due on getting married but Gay people are bad.
Am I missing something?

To "Who is Barb?":

You claim to know the intricacies of life at Georgetown. Apparently those intricacies don't include courses in Logic. Your ad-hominem tactics do shame to the intellectual reputation of this school.

Thanks, Wilson. I deliberately attacked the character of Barb as an irrelevant wingnut because that's what she is. She has never been to this school and knows nothing about it. As such, she should work on keeping her mouth shut rather than spouting her dogmatic bullshit every chance that she gets. If it's arrogant to claim that people shouldn't judge a school without actually having been to it, then I'm arrogant. Fine. But Barb should simply stop posting. She's simply a whiner and does nothing for positive change except yammer on a message board. Hey, Barb, when you shell out tuition costs and attend this university for four years, we'll then let you tell us how you think it should be run.

"Actually, I am a CATHOLIC debating about a so-called CATHOLIC institution. Do I have a vested interest in the school? I do believe so. If the students leave the school claiming to be catholics when they have renounced Her doctrines, I will of course have an interest in that. Truth in advertising folks! Just drop the claim to anything catholic and I will be more than happy to make myself absent."

Firstly, I'll agree with one of the later posts that says that I do appreciate your passion for the issue, but I will also say that this post indicates that you truly do not understand what Georgetown is all about.
Georgetown is Catholic in what ways? Perhaps that is what we should discuss. It is not a seminary or a church; it does NOT preach to any student that he or she must uphold the teachings of Catholicism. Rather, it promotes freedom of thought, freedom to question, freedom of religion - its Catholicism is a part of this, to be sure. It is more overtly seen in the no-condom policy, the lack of recognition of Hoyas for Choice, the presence of the Jesuits, the theology course requirement, the regular masses, etc.

But Georgetown has not in recent memory required students to take specific courses tailored to the Catholic tradition. The one required theology course is a choice between the more philosophically-based Problem of God (which I took and found quite enlightening, even though I am not a practicing Christian), or a course on Biblical Literature. The other theology requirement is fulfilled by the student's choice.

I thank Georgetown for not imposing specific doctrines onto us. It is one of its assets, because that way we are not limited (IMO) by the teachings of the Catholic Church, teachings I don't agree with (not to mention my issues with those who are imparting those teachings to the laypeople).

You are not going to be the person leading the Crusade against Georgetown's "Catholicism." The Jesuits have been a more open-minded set for a long while now, and I doubt they will let themselves be strong-armed into letting Georgetown go (for the sake of who?) Just because some professors do not follow the teachings of the Church and make it quite known isn't grounds for their expulsion, rather it is an opportunity for you to debate them. You have done so with Prof. Lance (who's retorts have been, admittedly, not the best).

What irks me nowadays is when you have alumni come here, or people such as yourself that have no connection to the university, and wax on about how great and conservative the place once was, and how the students and faculty today shame it. I ask those people, have you been to Georgetown recently? You see things in The Hoya, by no means the most quality publication we have, and that's it. Meanwhile, Hoyas raise hundreds of thousands in the fight against cancer, Hoyas are against the war in Iraq, Hoyas do community service, etc. But that's not considered part of the experience? Something tells me the majority of the alumni decrying Georgetown today were doing similar things back when they were here. Only then, the "guise of Catholicism" was perhaps stronger? Who knows.

Come visit, see for yourself what we have to offer, both as a university and as a Catholic institution. Then judge.

Can somebody at the Hoya please change this stupid CAPTCHA image thing? I can't even interpret it, and I'm human!

Amen to that, brotha; it took me about 12 tries.

And I'm not just human, I have a BA cum laude and an MBA! ;-)

FIX IT!

Mr. Beck,

Calling yourself a Catholic does not make you one. A person who supports abortion is supporting an "intrinsic evil" (as recently defined by the USCCB) and is not at liberty to receive Communion.
The Catholic Church has certain "requirements" for membership and those that choose not to accept any and all are invited to find a more flexible faith.
Georgetown is a Catholic University. It can be as inclusive as it wants and as open in its discourse of ideas as it chooses. It cannot however overtly or tacitly support an intrinsic evil like abortion, or homosexual activity. To do so would make it non-Catholic, much like you have apparently chosen.
I invite you to read the USCCB document on "Faithful Citizenship". http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf
It is a great aid for the formation of conscience and a guide to the responsibilities of Catholics in the public square. While you will find that you are putting your eternal salvation at risk, (P.16) if you support such anti-Catholic policy, you will be relieved to find in our Catechism that restoring yourself to a Catholic in good standing is only one good confession away.
I will pray that you choose wisely.

Mr. Hondo,

I did not realize that you were the arbiter of who is Catholic and who is not. In every faith, people can have theological and policy disagreements, yet still remain members of that sect. As far as I know, the large numbers of Catholics worldwide who support abortion rights have not been summarily excommunicated by the Vatican, so unless you are the Pope himself, you really have no place lecturing others on their "eternal salvation".

I believe that both sides in this discussion have gone off path and engaged more in personal attacks then on examining the issue of how Georgetown is Catholic, and to what degree the Vatican or the Washington Archdiocese should have power over the academic decision making of our institution. There are arguments to be made on either side, but insulting non alums for having the gall to post on an open message board, or praying for our souls to escape eternal damnnation only distract.

In my opinion, Georgetown's identity first and foremost is not that off mainstream Catholicism, but more distinctly of the Society of Jesus. Jesuits ideal is that the glory of Christ will be found more completely not through lock step doctrinism, but rather by the free exchange of ideas within an academic setting and the show of love and tolerance for all peoples. It is under this ideal that a Jesuit institution can tolerate and even to some degree support something like H*yas for Choice (which recieves no funding) or the Gay Resource Center. Souls will not be "saved" by excluding people who believe differently or by not allowing proffesors bring up ideas which may be at odds with doctrine.

There is a place for strict doctrine, but that place is not an elite Jesuit University.

Talk about an insular community! It takes a Ph.d to disagree with you? What arrogance!

These boards are PUBLIC, in case you haven't noticed. If this forum doesn't want outsiders posting, then by all means, restrict access. Take it up with the forum managment. In the meantime, I guess you will have to deal with us outsiders. As I have stated before in another post, I have adhered faithfully to the forum rules, the only beef you have with me is my defense of the Church's teachings.

You don't want the ascendency of Revealed Truths in your school? Then work to have the religious trappings (all that is left at GU)removed completely. Truth in advertising folks!

Barb

At least Barb has the metaphorical balls to list her name "Who is Barb?". This is an open forum, not one just for Georgetown Students. Although I am one, and as such would be able to post either way, I like reading the outside perspective on the issues and I don't think you should be disparaging, and quite frankly down right offensive, to non-students and faculty who choose to post on the site and may not agree with your point of view.

Barb, why don't you dial back the rhetoric yourself. From what I see, there was one a-hole who made a poor point, and was called out on it by several distinct posters. (Including me)

I wouldn't call that an "insular community". I'd call it a dynamic community that displayed a pretty harsh reaction to a single person's call for censorship and isolationism.

Furthermore, if you want to debate and engage, then debate and engage. But don't come to these boards (along with your cohorts such as J. Hondo) and post un-elaborated blither and trite phraseology. Yelling "Revealed Truths" or "intrinsic evil" will not a convincing point of argumentation make.

I assume, charitably, that that is why you are here - to engage in earnest intellectual back-and-forth. If that is true, then you need to engage in a compatible framework of logic, argumentation, analysis, substantiation, etc. If, on the other hand, you aren't truly motivated by such desires, but, instead, are content to repeat these 'container' phrases (Revealed Truth) or conclusions of others "instrinsic evil" (vide Hondo) then I think you are being ingenuous in saying you are here to engage in a "defense" of Catholicism. My own education at Georgetown has exposed me to the brilliance of some of the Church's finest apologists throughout the centuries. They certainly didn't become renowned in the tomes of our Church by standing up before a crowd and pulling the equivalent of sticking their tongue out, yelling 'I'm right says so here so there!' and heading home.

The strongest foundations of Western civilization's dialogue and discourse on religiosity (largely catholic religiosity) are built on the COMMON TO ALL PARTIES framework of logic, analysis, reason, etc. I hope you'll play by those rules - as you did, at least for a while, in your discussion with Lance a few days ago - instead of resorting to some bible belt catchphrases and generalizations.

Best,

Hoya Alum 2

NB: can't take responsibility for any misspells here, apologies, but typing this from a mobile

disingenuous -- sorry