"What counts as fair treatment of someone who lost their job in a U.S.-owned maquiladora, perhaps for daring to talk about unions, after working 15-hour days for a fraction of our minimum wage?"

What counts as fair treatment of an American worker who lost his job at an automobile factory which moved its operations to Mexico to provide better-paying jobs for Mexicans?

Just as likely as your scenario is the fact that CHINA provides even cheaper labor than Mexico so factories have moved their operations there from Mexico. And certainly wages in Mexico are lower than in the US--the cost of living is lower, the supply of labor greater, driving down wages, and the ability to unionize more restricted. Precisely the reasons that AMERICAN workers object to an influx of unskilled illegal labor that undercuts them by accepting wages that are high by the standards of their home countries but inadequate for living in the US and by their sheer numbers makes bargaining for higher wages and better conditions more difficult.

The American story per Lance, as I read it, was the story of a more advanced civilization displacing a less advanced one. For this sin of my fathers, I (who has not yet given plague to anyone as far as I know) should feel guilty to the point of endorsing global collectivism which inherently denies everyone economic freedom?

One could take a different tack. Despite significant growing pains, the trend of stronger societies displacing weaker ones is the sole reason our species has advanced, not just here but throughout the first, second, and even third worlds. Without this trend, we would still be carrying spears, subject to rampant disease and cyclical starvation, and illiterate. If Lance would prefer to live in such a world he is only a plane ride and caravan away, although his scholarly ponderances may be of little value there. Perhaps that would clear his guilty conscience.

The illegal immigrants you speak of must have some skills to offer or else why would they be hired? Instead of blaming them for other displaced workers, let's look at Darwinism or natural selection. If the American workers that are losing their jobs would reeducate themselves and learn new skills they would not only be better off, but they would have more to offer the rest of America. But I suppose you can't ask people to take responsibility for their own lives. Look at the divorce rate of America and lest we forget the lawsuits and all the daytime judges cultivating them.

This is typical subversive anti-American historical revisionism. Columbus was here under the authority of Spain-so we should take the blame for all his shortcomings (which paled in light in the Aztecs massive human sacrifice pyramids) and open our doors to the third world. Pul lease.

http://texasranger1848.blogspot.com/

I liked it better when Howard Zinn wrote it the first time in the People's History of the United States. Here's a sample of Zinn's original version:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060838655/ref=sib_dp_pop_ex?ie=UTF8&p=S...

Holy crap! Someone had a similar idea at some point! It MUST be a rip-off the book. Surely no one can simply look at the history of the colonization of this land and reach the same conclusion, it must be stolen!
I'm glad you read books, Factchecker, That gives me a warm happy feeling. Still, I stopped being proud of being literate around age 7, what's taking you so long?

I'm going to respond line-by-line to all of these because they are all terribly, terribly ignorant -- and, I must say, rather cowardly. Since everyone here has refused to identify themselves, except Professor Lance, I will just use quotations.

--------------------

--- "First, every state is founded by forcefully taking land from another people."

Well, I think that's rather the point - isn't it? Aside from the imperatives of violence with State formation, nothing says that (a) states must be formed or, if they must, (b) that such formation must be accompanied by a genocide and enslavement. Further, nothing says that past violence justifies contemporary injustice. Your statement is simply an obvious truth of history - one with which any radical anarchist would agree quite readily - but it contains no ethical argument as to why it should be the case. Of course, you can make those arguments (they are not very good ones in my opinion), but this refutation, if one can manage to call it that, was simply lazy.

--- "... Oh, I almost forgot, the "native" peoples of America (immigrants from Asia themselves) slaughtered each other for dominance of land (and also killed thousands of buffalo by stampeding them off cliffs and wasted most of their carcasses, not using every last bit like you were taught in grade school). Your idea of the native savage is outdated and seems to make Native Americans less capable of human activity than other people."

First, I suppose we could have a debate about the term "native" peoples and their immigration a few thousand years ago to this continent, but it wouldn't be very fruitful. Second, I'd be interested to know precisely what genocide and enslavement occurred because of that migration. I'd also like to know which State still exists that carried it out and who is still benefiting from it. Third, no one is claiming that there was not violence associated with those societies, but I will wager that such violence was markedly less than the violence associated with the genocide, war and enslavement that occurred along with the colonial invasion. Your assumption that there is a "native savage" present in this article is ridiculous; there isn't that trope and it's more telling that your post is a knee-jerk reaction to someone who dares criticize the official history. It's more than a little ironic, for example, that you criticize the image of the "native savage" supposedly present in Professor Lance's article, but then go further to highlight the very "savagery" of those living in the Americas prior to the conquest. Either you are just dumb or confused.

--- "War is what human beings do. Period. Get over it."

The presence of war does not mean it's inevitable or that any particular war is just. The claim that war is inevitable is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. Beyond that, I'm not sure that the particular war and destruction of all previous societies for the greed of empires is justified in this context. The claim that "People kill each other" does not, for example, justify my murder of you just because you live in a house that I fancy. Also, see below for a bit of irony regarding your post.

--- "Second, I have never seen such a massive amount of white guilt. Yes, the past was horrible, but no one who is alive today was responsible for it. I owe absolutely nothing to Native Americans. Nothing."

This is where you are obviously wrong. No one alive today was immediately responsible the violence that occurred during that period, true that most of us weren't born in 1453 (though your ideology seems to date to that era), but that doesn't justify that violence in the first place (which you attempt to do above). But by recognizing the violence of the past, you are forced to recognize the privileges that you have because of it. Was it all for nothing? Was nothing "gained" for those enacting the conquest? Did not the US federal government gain power along with its massive slaughter of the indigenous people and its stuffing of them onto reservations? Do we not still have treaties that we refuse to recognize? The very fact that you live on stolen land - yes, stolen - and that the American Empire is able to provide for your most meaningless material desires proves that you have benefited from a history of injustice. Your inability to confront such injustice as history has marched into the present not only highlights your absolute ignorance but your weak-willed, perhaps non-existent, ethics.

--- "White people do not have to 'shut the fuck up and accept it.' Why would you say that it was bad for one group to subject it's norms and will on another group and then advocate the wronged group doing it right back? It makes no sense."

This is where your response gets really funny. You respond with absolute shock to the notion that white people should just "shut the fuck up and accept it" but, at the same time, make the same claims regarding wars and state-formation above: "Wars happen. Shut the fuck up and accept it. States are violent. Shut the fuck up and accept it." Indeed, would you not apply the same logic to the indigenous people? The "shut the fuck up and accept it" to those First Nations is implicit throughout your response. But, nevertheless, congratulations. You have just learned that no one should "shut the fuck up and accept it"; perhaps now you might want to learn that injustice everywhere is wrong and that the only ethical thing to do is oppose it. But that would require you to have some compassion for the Other and some knowledge of history; judging from your post, I'm not sure you're up to the task.

--- "Also, to say that the wealth of Americans is built on the backs of slaves is a wild extrapolation from a terrible time in American (and human) history. Using that logic you could say that America was built on upon the Norman slaughter of King Harold. Not many families have sustained financial dominance from their slave-holding days. I understand the point that America's collective wealth was based on slave labor."

This is amazingly short-sighted. Do you think it is a coincidence that white Americans are richer than an ethnic group that they enslaved for a few centuries? I'm not sure anyone could possibly be such a dolt to assume that it made no difference. I suggest going to the history section of the library and checking a book.

--- "Side note: How do you think the European slave traders got slaves? Answer: African tribes conquered other tribes and made them slaves and then sold them to Whites, and they had been doing this minus the last step of selling them to Whites for hundreds of years."

You have demonstrated a powerful understanding of high school history... The existence of violent functionaries complicit with empires has always been necessary for their success, but it has never justified the existence of those imperial forces in the first place. This is rather like listening to a petulant child screaming, "I'm like rubber, you're like glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you." The bizarre justification that you offer here is rather telling about your own guilt complexes.

--- "The cruel fact of the world is that almost every powerful nation's wealth is based on some type of inhumane treatment of another culture. I'm not saying that this is right, but it is ridiculous to chide the United States alone on this issue. I know there is a limited amount of space in this article, but the United States is not the only culprit."

Bravo. Let's join in a universal condemnation of wealthy, imperial states. But guess what? You're in the United States. You live on stolen land. You enjoy privileges because of the legacy of genocide and enslavement. It's a relevant point of criticism for two reasons: (1) it is the place where we can have the most effect on policy and our relationship to colonized peoples; (2) when people are nativist about immigration issues, they often forget the legacy of violence associated with their own presence on this continent. Last time I checked, Mexicans weren't rounding us all up into reservations and killing us off with diseases and wars.

--- "Finally, When the first immigrants came to this land there were no laws about it. Then there were laws set up to ban people form coming (Southern Europeans, Chinese, etc.). Now there are laws that allow most people to come as long as they follow the rules. It is every nation's prerogative to determine who they want in their country and how they should be admitted."

Perhaps. Aside from the absurd fact that you think there are no biases to current immigration laws, you ignore the legacy of imperialism that has continued to increase poverty in the countries of the global south and thus, concurrently, their desire to leave those countries for better economic opportunities. I would be surprised, for example, if you would accept the same level of national sovereignty regarding the flow of capital. But labor? No, no - that just wouldn't be acceptable.

In short, your response is not only historical ignorant but it demonstrates a nearly unparalleled paucity of ethical conviction. I suspect the two are somehow related. It's ironic that you condemn "white guilt" so much, even though this is an obvious attempt to rationalize some of your own guilt issues. Owning up to history and current privilege is not the epitome of white guilt; rationalizing war, genocide and imperialism so that one can live in comfort and ignore continued injustice is.

--------------------

--- "As for calling us "illegal progeny', go eat a bag of ..."

We live on stolen land. The treaties are quite clear about it. You are factually wrong, but imperialist ideology has never given that much importance.

--------------------

--- "This is typical subversive anti-American historical revisionism. Columbus was here under the authority of Spain-so we should take the blame for all his shortcomings (which paled in light in the Aztecs massive human sacrifice pyramids) and open our doors to the third world. Pul lease."

Wrong. You need to learn more about the revisionist accounts concerning Columbus and his relationship to the Americas. The attempt following the colonization of the Americas was to make the conquest appear to have been friendly. It started with Bartoleme de las Casas: prior to his advocacy for the indigenous population, he wanted to show that the conquest happened peacefully. If you read the diary of Columbus today, it is one that was put together by Las Casas; even though there are quotes and sections still in tact, it is simply ignorant not to know that revisionism of the conquest started as soon as it began. This has all been very well-documented. Only now, with a criticism of Columbus and these previous revisionist accounts, are we starting to learn exactly how the colonization took place and the massive violence associated with it. I'd also be happy to know exactly what your sources are for the comparative violence levels in Aztec civilization and the slaughter and destruction resulting from the conquest. If you could please show me some level of exploitation comparable to those existing even in the mines of Potosí, I'd be impressed.

--------------------

--- "One could take a different tack. Despite significant growing pains, the trend of stronger societies displacing weaker ones is the sole reason our species has advanced, not just here but throughout the first, second, and even third worlds. Without this trend, we would still be carrying spears, subject to rampant disease and cyclical starvation, and illiterate. If Lance would prefer to live in such a world he is only a plane ride and caravan away, although his scholarly ponderances may be of little value there. Perhaps that would clear his guilty conscience."

Let's take that "different tack" to task. "Stronger societies [displace] weaker ones" and this is the sole reaction for the so-called "advancement" of civilization, leaving beyond "spears... disease... starvation... and [illiteracy]." This is a rather interesting claim. One might, for example, think about it in reverse. The Spanish reconquista kicked Muslims and Jews out of the Spain. The colonization of the Americas was seen as a continuation of that mission. Would it be fair to say that the Spanish were more advanced? Indeed, I believe even a cursory look at the historical records seem to indicate that non-Western societies were far more advanced than Europe around and prior to that time on all number of issues. How, then, can we reconcile the rise of European empires as "advancements"? The simple answer is that we can't. Strength does not equal advancement. Let's take a most elementary example. A scientist walks out of the lab into a parking lot. There he is shot and killed for his money. A "stronger" person has "displaced" (to use your euphemism) a "weaker" person, but that does not mean that society has advanced - precisely the opposite. In any case, your caricature of (non-Western) "primitive" society is somewhat hilarious and not even really worth a lengthy response, except to note that - even with our so-called "advancements" - there still exist disease, starvation and illiteracy. Most of those things, by the way, are the result of structurally created inequalities that are sustained by global capitalism. Your belief in the "progress" of history must be a nice little comfort blanket for you, but it's really rather laughable logically, historically and ethically.

--------------------

--- "What counts as fair treatment of an American worker who lost his job at an automobile factory which moved its operations to Mexico to provide better-paying jobs for Mexicans?"

Congratulations. You have started to understand a small part of the many reasons why capitalism is unjust.

--------------------

Any other anonymous cowards want to post some poorly researched, unethical comments? Let's have at it.

So I'm generating comments, which is a good thing. I'll respond to a few of you. Factchecker: Neither Howard nor I "wrote it". Columbus wrote it, as both Howard and I said. But you are right that I learned of this quote from A People's History of the US. That y'all should read that book was sort of the point of the column.

Again, everyone: read A People's History of The United States. It is the single most important book for a US citizen to read.

Anonymous 12:58 -- I think I mentioned the effect on US workers of this flight of capital. It is devastating. But banning immigrants won't keep a factory from running to China. Indeed, since it will further depress foreign wages -- by increasing labor supply there -- it will make it more likely. Cross-border solidarity is the only solution.

Anonymous 4:10 -- the issue isn't one of blame. Tons of cultures have committed crimes. (The Aztec sacrifices were nowhere near the scale of the genocide of Europeans on this continent, but that is not the point.) The point is that one must think about where one's wealth came from. It isn't that you are to blame for the crimes of your ancestors, but that you profited from them. So you no more "deserve" your wealth, than the child of a Mayan deserves to be born into poverty. It is a chance of birth and the end of an ugly history.

Anonymous 4:13 - I find it amusing how many of the posts, especially posts with this tone, are anonymous. (fyi, I'm 49, skinny, nerdy, and committed to nonviolence. No need to be afraid.) PS - I didn't write the title.

Anonymous 6:46 -- This post just makes me sad. You seem to feel that looking at history means you have to be guilty of all of it. But can't you just look at it and try to make things better? The point isn't that the US is worse than other countries, but that we all are the product of luck, and that we should hvae compassion for those with less of it. But you seem to think you can live a life rejecting morality altogether. THat is what makes me most sad. You will cause many people a lot of harm with this attitude, and in the end, you won't be happy either. Really, this is no way to go through life.

And finally, Clark: thanks for all the clarifications. I don't disagree with any of the points in your post, but you know, y'all play nice now. :)

"Let's take that "different tack" to task. "Stronger societies [displace] weaker ones" and this is the sole reaction for the so-called "advancement" of civilization, leaving beyond "spears... disease... starvation... and [illiteracy]." This is a rather interesting claim. One might, for example, think about it in reverse. The Spanish reconquista kicked Muslims and Jews out of the Spain. The colonization of the Americas was seen as a continuation of that mission. Would it be fair to say that the Spanish were more advanced?"

(1) No, the Spanish were not neccessarily more advanced in that case, but they were acting within their percieved self-interest. The Muslims were acting in their percieved self-interest when the conquered Spain to begin with. By allowing societies to compete societies advance.

(2) The Scientist who gets shot in the parking lot, if he as smart as the hypo assumes would either (a) conduct his life so as to avoid criminals, or (b) promote a societal interest in prosecuting crime. Failing (a) or (b) he is a briliant dead-man.

(3) I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with regard to my "comfort blanket" of feeling that relative proserity, literacy and technology are better than the lack of them. If we can learn something about how to better provide or better heal, or better teach our society by observing the Congo, or Rwanda, or even Mexico, I'm all for it. I'll take a lesson where I can get it. But to suggest that America doesnt represent "progress" any more than they do is a stretch.

(5) Finally, To the extent that my perpetuation of capitalist inequalities keeps non-Western societies down, my sympathy is limited. We exist in a global community and someone will have to set the terms of how commerce in that community is conducted. So long as Western societies create prosperity that non-Western societies desire, they should play the game by our terms.

If the terms aren't to their liking, they can tell us to (Lance's word) **** off. They could even "reconquest" the accidents of our imperiouslism and take title to Nike's shoe factories, Citibank's call centers and the Gap's textile mills. In fact, if it were in their best interest, they would have already done so.

Just as it is healthy to consider whether Western hegemony is desirable, its also imperative to consider the alternative. If America doesnt set the terms of global trade who does?

Mark and Clark, you give me hope in Georgetown and the world (where much and many negate it). Truly, thank you.

Keep it up, comrades.

Lance is wrong. The best way to honor the valued immigrants in our nation is to distinguish them from the illegal aliens. Both my mother and step-mother are direct immigrants to the U.S. They accepted the legal limits of the lawful immigration process and are against illegal aliens improperly cutting in line. I agree with them. Illegal aliens are a burden, not a benefit to the U.S. The U.S. does not have an obligation to shelter them permanently, although we do owe them reasonable due process and non-violence as we act to remove them from our nation. The best way to honor the valued immigrants in our nation is to distinguish them from the illegal aliens.
Ronald Etters

Ronald:
I'm very glad that your mother was lucky enough to be admitted to the US, and that she wasn't in a desperate enough situation to require her to "cut in line". For those who are, it is really not a matter of rudeness in a store, but of life and death. The issue, as I see it, is not about rewarding your mom, or honoring her, but about what is the fair way to treat the victims of an economic order that the US enforces throughout the world. Also, please investigate this claim that immigrants are a burden on the US. This is not borne out by actual economic studies that I have seen. In any event, US corporations exploit these people. US-installed governments deny them rights. So yes, the US does have obligations.

As a person who has studied immigration both here and while abroad in Latin America, it's clear that the vast majority of people who immigrate to the United States (legally and illegally) do so out of economic and social desperation due to dehumanizing conditions in their own country (many of them indirectly caused by American interference). Moreover, the amount of foreign born residents of the United States today is dwarfed by the number of resident aliens at the beginning of the 20th century. This being said, I believe the United States should continue to play its historical role as a place where oppressed people the world over (*cough* English Puritans and Catholics) should be able to come to the United States. The issue with immigration is that the United States' acceptance rate for immigrants falls woefully short of what the economy demands and our society is willing to provide. A revision of these standards would allow more people to come into this country legally and allow them to become above board, legal members of society.

This being said, I do take a bit of issue with the idea behind both Professor Lance's article and the similar themes in Howard Zinn's book. While the United States and the European powers acting in the Western Hemisphere are all guilty of systematic genocide, it is noteworthy that the majority of "Native" Americans that died after the Intercomlombian exchange died of european diseases that were an unavoidable consequence of the collision of two different ecologies. Yes the Europeans and United States were cruel, and comitted actions morally repugnant to modern eyes, I think it's inappropriate to judge the actions of people 400 years ago by the undisputed moral standards of today. Famously said, there is not one acre of land that has not been stolen from its rightful owner. The idea that land cannot be taken by force is a relatively new concept. Should Americans recognize the mistakes of the past, absolutely. But if we are to go about setting our immigration policies based on historical wrongs, then the French owe a great debt to the English for that whole Hastings business. And Italy better throw open its doors to North Africa after sowing salt in the fields of Carthage. While these ideas are clearly ludicrous, they are no more unreasonable than the United States setting its immigration policy based on the sins of Manifest Destiny.

LOL...As much as I enjoyed the scholarly back and forth, why don't you people just say what the bottom line is? I can't claim to have a doctorate to fall back on for my information. I got off the elevator on the wrong floor one day. Simple as that. Ready? WELFARE. Welfare did not exist when the US had other waves of unwanted immigrants. The Irish were not able to claim food stamps. The Chinese didn't get a check on the first of each month. And I sure don't think slaves were ever offered Medicaid. So, let's not make this anything more lofty than it is. Just so all 7 yr olds can understand... we have allowed illegals to feed at the trough of our welfare system. If that did not exist in it's present form, they wouldn't come here. Period.

yes! subversiveness! stamp it out! root out the commies! i have here in my hand a list of names!

sheesh. go back to the 1950s. if there had been more "anti-American" debates like this a few years ago, maybe we wouldn't be involved in a murderous war with no end in sight, a major u.s. city in ruins and millions out of work.

Tracy:

The funny thing about comments that end with things like "period" -- and also comments that begin with "obviously" -- is that they are usually false. This is a case in point. THe vast majority of illegal immigrants work, the vast majority do not get welfare, and the overall contribution to the US economy is enormously positive. In most states, illegals aren't eligible for welfare at all, and of course welfare barely exists for US citizens these days. It was always a smaller percentage of GNP in the US than in almost any developed country, and the recent attacks by both Democrats and Republicans have utterly gutted it.

But here's the clever thing. While your government has been busy dumping money in the pockets of military contractors, giving huge tax breaks to the rich, and letting the working poor drop through the cracks, they have created this fabulous distraction. Blame it on the Mexicans. Hate each other. Don't organize against the wealthy. How could the wealthy have anything to do with the poor? Blame the even poorer.

Meanwhile, in corporate boardrooms, to paraphrase Neil Young, they are laughing until they piss themselves.
Yours,
Mark

Obviously Lance is doing the bidding of ethno-supremacist illegal alien, open border advocates like La RAZA, MALDEF, LULAC and their ilk. Every nation in the world has immigration laws and expects foreign nationals to abide by them. The U.S. cannot be the dumping ground for every single poor, uneducated person in the world without harming and affecting the quality of life of all citizens and LEGAL immigrants. By that standard, we should allow the over 1.8 billion people in this world that are lot more destitute, impoverished, persecuted than ANYONE from Mexico or Central AMerica (who make-up the bulk of the illegal aliens residing in our nation). The more humane and compassionate approach would be to put international pressure on countries like MExico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador to institute immediate, real and meaningful economic, employment, educational and social services policies/reforms to take care of their underclass and stop them from fleeing and entering our country in violation of our laws. We must have compassion for the millions of Americans who have suffered the deterioration of their neighborhoods, loss of jobs, wage reductions, crime due to the rampant, uncontrolled illegal immigration in this country.

Illegal immigrants can get emergency care through Medicaid, the federal-state program for the poor and people with disabilities. But they can't get non-emergency care unless they pay. They are ineligible for most other public benefits.

Data on health care costs for illegal immigrants are sketchy because hospitals and community health centers don't ask about patients' legal status. In California, a 2004 study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform put the state's annual cost at $1.4 billion. Similar studies in Colorado and Minnesota in 2005 came up with much smaller estimates: $31 million and $17 million, respectively.

One thing is clear: Undocumented immigrants are driving up the number of people without health insurance. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 59% of the nation's illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens. Illegal immigrants represent about 15% of the nation's 47 million uninsured people — and about 30% of the increase since 1980.

Thanks, now I know. Never start a statement with "obviously" or end it with "period". Back to the argument..It was said the vast majority of illegals work. The best estimates put the number at about half. When you factor in the children and women who stay at home with those children, in addition to the children they produce after crossing the border, the "vast" majority are not employed. I notice you chose to focus only on healthcare. Healthcare, while a huge part of the cost, is still only a part. Once you have an American born child, the entire family can receive food stamps. Even without an American-born child, documents are easy to buy in order to obtain these services. Have you heard of WIC? If you haven't, you should. You and I both get the pleasure of paying for it. As well as the free lunch and breakfast programs at our public schools. The list of entitlement programs is too long to list here, but I think most native born Americans would be surprised at what's available to anyone who walks in.

My sole point was only that in previous generations of immigrants, the welfare state as we know it did not exist. You either worked or you starved. If you couldn't earn enough to pay the rent, you lived in the street. And if you couldn't pay for a doctor, you died. Those conditions no longer exist. Let's face it, no one runs to a country that doesn't provide perks. And does the US provide perks! What other country can you get a drivers license in with no ID? Seven states in our country still offer a license to anyone, regardless of legal residence. Once you have a license (ID), you can buy a car, secure a place to live, enroll your children in school, etc. Schools are another perk that weren't offered to immigrant Chinese or Irish. Yet, we have to educate an illegal child, whether we want to or not, whether they want it or not.

It's always easy to condemn people for their beliefs when you don't live their lives. I would be willing to say not one of the posters on this page has had illegals take over their neighborhoods, their schools. Historical arguments are great...for a classroom. When you try to apply them to real life, they will fall flat. I will guarantee the people in my area who "just came in search of a better life" could give a damn about history and why our borders are set up the way they are. All they know is they could get here relatively easy, set up a new life relatively easy and face very little consequence along the way. They could get all these wonderful things,like a free visit to the ER or formula for their baby, from this country at little or no risk to themselves.

I loved reading your posts. The historical perspective was wonderful. While we may disagree on, well, just about everything, I appreciate you allowing me to share my opinion. I totally agree that corporate America is tickled pink with their new generation of slave laborers and their huge profit margins. I blame them for much of what is happening today. For the record, I do not hate Mexicans. While they do make up a large part of our illegal population, they are only taking advantage of the door we left open. Literally. The way I feel about illegal immigration is not something new or something I picked up from Lou Dobbs last month. My family left California to get away from this. Our house was broken into one too many times, and the illegals used our backyard as a temporary camp while passing through to greener pastures. My hometown has been transformed into a place I no longer recognize. I was forced to move my children out of their schools for their safety. This is not an abstract argument to me. This is my life.

Leaving to one side all the assumptions that I automatically know less because I'm educated, that I never travel outside a university, live in near housing projects, work with poor folks, etc., what is really interesting about so many of these responses is that I didn't actually propose a way of dealing with immigration. I asked that we think about it with the history in mind.

But I do want to comment on Tracy's policy recommendation. First, I sympathize with what went on in your neighborhood. I do wonder how you knew that all these people were illegal, but let's assusme that is right. So we can agree that gangs, crime, etc. are real problems. How to deal with it? I would suggest things like enforcing laws against violent activity, increasing economic opportunities for immigrants, providing affordable housing, etc. All would surely cut down on the number living in your yard.

Tracy, however, thinks that the way to deal with this is to deny WIC funds to immigrants. Do note the cost of WIC - a fraction of 1% of the federal budget, or for comparison roughly 1/100th the cost of the Iraq war. But more importantly, the idea seems to be to deny milk, other basic food, and rudimentary medical care to children and pregnant women, so that other immigrants will be deterred from coming here. I guess the idea is that someone will say -- "well, I'm unemployed, but if I go to the US and my wife gets pregnant, they'll let our baby starve, so we'll just stay here and starve."

That is one way to respond. And I do believe you that you don't hate Mexicans. But for all that I really have to believe there is a more compassionate approach than collective punishment.

Well, folks, that's it for me on the topic. I've genuinely enjoyed the discussion, especially with people like Tracy who took the time to write something substantive. I hope the next column generates as much debate. I hope everyone will continue to think and discuss about this.

Why does everything have to be seen through the "white people bad, everybody else good" lens? It's as if the author feels that we owe some cosmic debt to rest of the world and that white citizens of the US shouldn't have any say over immigration policy as a result. Good deal. It's funny, but these people who believe that whites carry around this inborn guilt never put guns to their heads and close up shop over it. They just like to put other, less enlightened (according to them), white people down for holding different opinions.
I'm not going to say that I'm inherently evil for being white. Others in the world, many members of the "oppressed" groups have done some really horrible things, far worse than anything I've done, so why should I go about my life feeling guilty simply for walking around while being of European extraction?
Specifically relating to the subject of immigration, I'd ask this guy what he thinks we should do. Is mass immigration on its current scale good for our country? I don't know for sure. I'm not an expert on the subject, but it looks as if nobody on the left wants to ask this very practical question. It's always an us vs. them thing. I'm tired of people like Lance telling me who I am and where I fit in.

Mark,
You are correct on one thing. We all should know our history. We should know our history in regards to time, place, and global context. Our history is not evil. The history of the world is a series of dominant tribes conquering weaker tribes. Throughout history civilizations have conquered, settled, and established governments in new lands. Why is the fact that Europeans came to North America and settled the land more noteworthy than the hundreds of other conquests that came before?

Your choice of words is odd indeed referring to the trash Irishmen and the evil Chinamen. Economic incentives are the driving force for immigration. Employers want immigrants for the cheap labor. Immigrants want to come here for jobs. To suggest that illegal immigration is encouraged by businesses that wish to prevent labor unions from forming is preposterous. People come here because they want to work. The influx of illegals who come here for jobs has resulted in tremendous social problems for Americans. Crime is up dramatically, schools are bursting at the seams, highways are more congested, drivers are on the road without automobile insurance, and people are going to the emergency room in hospitals to receive free medical care. The most important social problem is the impact that illegal immigration has had on poor, underskilled American workers. There are no opportunities in construction for Americans. There are no opportunities in the hospitality industry for Americans. This is wrong.

We Europeans are here. We conquered this land, settled it, and formed a government that allows us a level of freedom and a degree of egalitarianism that has never been seen in the history of the world. No society can survive without limits on immigration. No society can survive with total disregard of our laws by alien peoples. American citizens deserve and should demand that foreign people wishing to come here do so legally.

History? who're you to talk about history? maybe the history of your own corrupt nation per chance? but lets not stray from the subject. We have laws, its that simple. So stop laying back on the old excuse that you can break such laws do to situations of centuries past. So stop leeching off the welfare state and live off all the law abiding legal citizens bill and go back to your own corrupt piece of land. You know, the very one you left to sneak into a country that you now scorn for not giving you a free pass.

They let just any parasite post such rubbish articles on the internet nowadays huh?

Maybe the brown people should shut the **** up since there is a great deal of evidence that the aboriginal inhabitants of North America were caucasoid. Ever hear of Kennewick Man?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_man

Perhaps it is you Professor, with all due respect, who should face reality. The reality is that "Native Americans" were immigrants from Asia, not a people who sprung from the Land. The Fact is, that this Nation would not exist were it not for the Brave and Industrious actions of my Ancestors. Who sailed across the vast Oceans and conquered such a "great" people that they were completely unable to defend themselves against a force mere thousandths the size of their own. Are the Europeans to blame for the diseases they brought over? Perhaps we ought to blame the Chinese for the Europeans having come into contact with them. We ought to blame the Chinese for the Tens of Millions of Europeans who died because of the Bubonic Plague. Perhaps those of us of European descent should seek reparations for these most Heinous of Crimes. Perhaps we Europeans should demand that the Turks leave the Anatolian, that the Arabs leave the Middle East, and North Africa, and allow the indigenous Greek, Semitic, and Berber tribes to reclaim their Land.

The Fact is, it was my Ancestors who founded this Country. It was White Anglo-Saxon Protestants who were the First Americans, because before them there was NO America. They built it from scratch and they deserve, above all others, to Profit from their Labor, and the Labor of their Forefathers. This Country was not built by Blacks and illegal immigrants, not by Hispanics, not by Asians, but Europeans, mostly of Northern European extraction. They built the farms, the cities, the roads, the institutions, they created this Nation from nothing, and if ANYONE is to have a say in its future, in its destiny, it is they who are descended from those Founders.

You sit there in your worthless little Academic Department. Director of the Program on Justice and Peace, but it is you who is truly ignorant of Reality, of History, of the insignificance of your own pathetic life. You decry those among us who wish to preserve our Birthright. Who wish to preserve that which our Forefathers built and handed down to us. It was not luck, but the Will of my Forefathers that give me what I have today, that afforded me the opportunities that I possess. I have a Right to those bountiful gifts just as my Ancestors had the Right to give them to me. And they will not be taken by insolent, arrogant, Philosopher such as yourself. It's People like you that will and ARE causing the True backlash. European Americans are sick and tired of having the Legacies of their Ancestors besmirched by Elitist, know-nothings like yourself, who are more concerned with being seen as politically correct, who are more concerned about helping out minorities, than they are for helping their own People. The Time is rapidly approaching when People like you will no longer be listened to, will no longer be looked to as a Person of Intelligence, of Integrity, of Honor. And those "White People" whom you wish would just shut up, and sit by and watch idly as their Country, their Institutions, their People are destroyed; they are going to stand up and fight for what is Theirs. No matter how much the Learned in Academe such as yourself doth protest.

When did the US "install" the government of Mexico? Isn't that a country from which a large proportion of our immigrants come? The last time I checked, they had much more influence on US policies than vice versa. Did we install the government of Cuba? How about the governments of Vietnam, China?
Also, most of the people who oppose illegal immigration also oppose free trade agreements deemed unfair to third world countries.
Why are you still here writing this crap instead of prostrating yourself before somebody downtrodden and non-white? Maybe you and Jane Elliot should sell your worldly possessions and donate the money to the poor. After this, you can volunteer yourselves as someone else's cheap, exploited laborer.
What economic studies have you seen, by the way? I'm sure they're non-biased.

Mark,

I am disturbed by your response to my original comment, particularly the following:

"...you are right that I learned of this quote from A People's History of the US. That y'all should read that book was sort of the point of the column."

If the point of the column was that we should all read Zinn, why was it that you didn't mention Zinn, his book, or that book being the sole source of your quote and (dare I say) seemingly the idea for your article, in the article itself? In fact, you didn't suggest that we should read Zinn until I called you on that being your source. One might be led to think you wouldn't have credited Zinn at all if I didn't provide the link to his version.

If you want to be provocative, more power to you. If you want to borrow the ideas of others (including, at a minimum directly copying a unique, translated quote from their book), I suggest in the future that you give that person credit for their work. Maybe then y'all couldn't be confused with someone who has borrowed ideas from another in a way that might lead one to questions their academic integrity.

Perhaps Lance needs to be reminded that the very capitalism he despises created the great educational institutions like Georgetown.

Perhaps Mark should be reminded of the plagiarism policy. Did he read his own article? In the comments he indicates he credited Howard Zinn and encouraged people to read his book. That is NOT in the article.

Actually, yes, it was a rip-off of the book. Howard Zinn came up with a brilliant book with a provocative theme. Prof. Lance cribbed the theme and implied the idea was his own by not mentioning Zinn anywhere in his column.

Liberals like you never know what you've got until it's gone. Do you really think that Mexicans, if they become a majority, will be as lenient and kind as we've been to them? How many entitlement and social programs do you think Mexicans will voluntarily fund for the care of poverty stricken whites? Think about it, if you even can.

What's most amazing is universities hire idiots like this Mark Lance to brainwash white students to hate themselves for wanting to preserve their country.

The reality we need to face is Mexico has problems because the Mexican people refuse to fix them. They refuse to get rid of their corrupt leaders. They refuse to control their population. So allowing millions of Mexicans into the US will not fix the problems of Mexico.

And I'm sick of hearing about how much immigrants "contribute" to the US. If they were contributors, LaRaza and the other ethnic lobby groups wouldn't scream whenever the US cuts handouts or enforces the law. If the Mark Lances of the world had their way, no border would exist and the US would be just like Mexico. Of course, that would also mean Mark Lance might have to get a real job.

If you want to understand the insanity of nuts like lance, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

"Philosophers" like this or should I say Marxist indoctrinators are the reason that college is no longer worth sending your child to. If they are white they will be told how evil there forefathers are and how great all non-white races are in comparison.

Historically it would have been better if whites had stayed in Europe. Perhaps our race would have been left alone to progress without being hampered by other races. They could have lived happily in their savage states instead of living off of our civilization and technological achievements while all the while complaining about how evil we are as a race.

White people need to wake up and reject the ideas of self-hating whites like this clown.

First, present day Americans cannot be held responsible for the sins of this nations past European inhabitants. Further, Europeans are hardly alone in crimes against humanity. Such is, unfortunately, the narrative of humanity since the beginning of recorded history some 6,000 years ago. U.S. imperialism was horrible and unjust, especially on Latin American countries, no question about it. But the vast majority of those operations were secret gov't ops... the general public and the vast majority of U.S. politicians had no idea these ops were being carried out. Rank and file Americans cannot be held responsible for secret operations.
Second, since the author is fixated on beating up the USA, he should consider the immeasurable number of inventions this nation gave the world: computers, automobiles, telephone, television, space craft, aircraft, medical technology, medical drugs, the list is endless. Have other nations/peoples benefited from what Americans invented? Of course.
Third, we have a welfare state in the USA today which illegals benefit from. The bill is passed onto the American taxpayer. Comparing past immigrants from China or wherever is absurd because you are comparing two different worlds: the past non welfare state U.S. and the present welfare state U.S.
Fourth, I suggest you sign any real property you own over to the nearest Native American tribe. By owning such land, you are merely a squatter living on illegally aquired land. Let's start with you.

Lastly...

Liberals who support illegal immigrants are unknowingly siding with greedy U.S. corporations. Why? Because illegal immigration is about one thing --> more corporate profits via lower labor costs.

WHO WINS? Greedy companies AND illegal workers (earning FAR more than in Mexico).

WHO LOSES? The U.S. labor class (U.S. proletariat) via job losses to illegal workers & depressed wages.

Thus 120 years of U.S. wage struggles fought for since the Haymarket Rebellion of 1886 are being undermined.

###

Factchecker:
I doubt very much that you are disturbed by anything here except my politics. YOu are simply applying the typical tactics of groups like campus-watch which urge you to try to discredit professors who challenge orthodoxy on grounds of misconduct.

I quoted the most famous passage from one of the best selling books of all time. Since footnotes are frowned upon in newspaper articles, and since what I was quoting was a comment by Columbus, not Zinn, it would have been pretty silly and overly fussy to fill up the column announcing which historian translated the properly attributed quote. (Please have a look at some newspaper columns and tell me how many cite the translator of the quote they are referencing?) Did you think that I was pretending to have found Columbus's journal on my own and translated it? Did you think I was trying to hide the fact that I read Zinn when I tell virtually any student who will listen that it is, in my view, the single most important book for an American to read? Seriously.

As for the ideas -- the point that one needs to be aware of the historical context of their acquisition of land -- I could suggest to you literally hundreds of people who have argued the same idea, going back at least two centuries before Zinn. (Indeed, the point has been made by classical sources thousands of years ago, but is central in Locke's theory of property.) There was no original idea in this column. That is the difference between opinion columns in newspapers -- where the goal is to convince people of politically significant opinions rather than to produce original research -- and research papers.

So please do run along and stop this pretend outrage over made up citation sins. If you disagree with what I'm saying, have the guts to take on the issue directly without pretending to care about these illusory procedural matters.

So it appears that the white power lists got informed of the article. I'm very happy about that because Georgetown students who read these posts can see what is really behind this anti-immigrant movement.

But I just wanted to say that I think this post gets the reward for being the unintentionally funniest of all of them. I mean calling me a Marxist, a fag (that one was in an email), anti-american, idiotic, illogical, yada yada is all a bit old. (In a few weeks, I'll be an "Arab-loving terrorist supporter". Hey, there's a good idea for a Hoya contest. See who can guess the most names that Lance will be called after a given column!) But saying that Capitalism created a Jesuit university in 1789, that is really quite creative.

So, I really am on to the next topic now. Continue defending the white race folks; continue assuming that I'm stupider than you. And I"ll continue trying to reach the conscience of people who have one.

Mark, you're so full of s*** that I can smell it through my screen. If you hate Whites so much, why don't you give up your worthless cushy job in the philosophy department and Program on Justice and Peace (oooh, I'm sooooo impressed), eschew White technology and civilization, and go live among the oppressed brown people you love so much? See how long it takes you to be robbed, assaulted, raped, or murdered by them.

There will be a race war in this country, thanks to useful idiots like you who think it's morally justified to drive Whites out of America. Unfortunately for you, you'll be on the losing side.

Kiss my White a**, you Marxist clown.

Oh, here we go again, another “white guilt trip.” Mr.Lance, if you look at history on the entire planet, it is one of past wars, conquests,injustices,brutality and slavery. The instances occured everywhere and among ALL races. Stop the hypocrisy. Whites in the past were no worse than any other race. This has NOTHING to do with people today or the type of migration we have today. If so, can we blame african-americans for the fact that africans sold their own people into slavery? Can we blame muslims today for the fact that they were FIRST in the african slave trade. Face fact, mexicans have no right to illegally invade our country and traitor americans have no right to hire them or allow them too. Most americans want legal immigration severely restricted too and the american citizens have the right to make these decisions, not marxists like you who foist your views against our will or the elite globalists who also foist it on us against our will. This is OUR home and we want the doors shut.

I’m willing to wager I know a lot more about history than you. And after many years of study and a great deal of contemplation, yes, I do scorn these people for sneaking into America — whether it’s to scrub toilets, to smuggle drugs, to wage Reconquista, or for ANY OTHER REASON. They don’t fit in, they don’t learn English, they breed like flies, and they are quite simply WRECKING the place.

If these mestizos can’t feed their children in their own country, maybe they should try this miraculous new invention called the condom.

And you, self-hating white college boy, can shut the **** up and accept it.

The fact that Lance denies that mass Aztec genocide in the form of human sacrifice never even happened tells us all we need to know about him

Mark Lance does not have one single argument that will stand-up in a debate. He knows that. So, he uses one of the oldest tricks in the book. White guilt.

All races should be treated with tolerance and respect. Mark Lance is determined to treat White people with intolerance and disrespect. If that doesn't work, blame Whites for every social problem in the history of civilization. It is noble for Black Americans, Asian Americans, and Hispanic Americans to embrace the achievements of their ethnic groups, why is it not noble for Whites to do the same?

It is appalling that a professor twists the truth for his own political gain. Mark Lance is intellectually dishonest.

And I'm very happy because everyone who reads your sewage can see what's really behind the anti-White, anti-American, pro-brown immigrant movement ... jealousy. Jealousy towards the greatest race to ever walk the face of the earth; the White Race.

As far as you being a Marxist, well the shoe certainly seems to fit. As far as you being a fag, well, only your roommate knows for sure.

I pity you when the SHTF in this country. Don't come crawling to us for help, we won't take kindly to traitors. We'll simply laugh as your beloved browns have their way with you and your ilk.

So kiss my White a**, you Marxist clown.

why even bother.... 'nother pathetic, self-hating *ahem* "white" (laughable to even apply any trace of the West to Mark).... what's ironic - how swift - if indeed anarchy (mr. lance's choosen religion) were to prevail - the brown hordes would dispose of mark as relates to his position with georgetown - just a thought AND anarchy i would willfully applaud ....

mark = proof that phds are quite cheap these dayd....

"But saying that Capitalism created a Jesuit university in 1789, that is really quite creative."

it sure isn't the united negro college funds that's filling endowment coffers....

Prof. Lance,

I think the thing that undercuts your argument most is what seems to be a real personal lack of maturity on your part. Telling "white people" to shut the f--- up in a news column? Is that what passes for intelligent discourse? And your responses to criticism on this message board is just embarrassing.

You're entitled to your viewpoint, and to an extent, I'm glad you have this forum to air it, but you're really doing yourself a disservice in my opinion by behaving so strangely.

Our universities are infested with worthless Marxist "professors" like Mark, holding cushy jobs with impressive titles. The universities give them safe haven to practice their treason. They wouldn't dare venture out into the real world and get a real job for fear of getting their pansy @$$ kicked by real Americans.

Hey, check this out. Here's only some of the various leftist, socialist, Marxist, anti-American, and anti-Western (read "anti-White") organizations that this Marxist pus bag Mark Lance has apparently collaborated with:

• The Steering Committee and Staff of the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation, a nationwide coalition of 200 groups and organizations

• United for Peace and Justice, a nationwide coalition of 1,400 organizations

• Jewish Voice for Peace, a national, Jewish-American group dedicated to changing American Middle East policy

• National Assoc. of Muslim American Women, an accredited humanitarian NGO

• Zeitouna: Arab & Jewish Women Working for Peace & Justice

• Free Press Houston, A magazine dedicated to telling the truth

• Universal Coalition for Interfaith and Intercultural Knowledge, For GENUINE peace, shared planet, mutuality, care

• Just Peace Productions, Public Access Megaphone Network for The People

• W.N.Y. Peace Center, conflict resolution in schools, Latin Am. work, and disarmament

• WILF

• MAM Intercontinental

• Nonviolence International

• Bloomington Peace Action Coalition (BPAC), committed to ending the war on Iraq

• People for Peace and Justice, working for peace for 4 years.

• Miami for Peace, primary focus-end the war in Iraq

• Peace Farm

• DC Poets Against the War.

• Mountain Forum for Peace, working for a just and peaceful world.

• Sacramento Progressive Alliance, Social Justice Activism in California's Capital City

• Western Washington Fellowship of Reconciliation, working for a just peace through nonviolence

• Bay Area Women in Black, Jewish feminists and allies working for peace and justice

• Volunteers for TAWO, volunteer gardeners

• Progressive Democrats of America, executive director

• South Bay Mobilization for Peace and Justice, We oppose war and occupation everywhere!

• ThinkingPeople, a peace and social justice org.

• Justice & Witness Ministries, NY Conf, United Church of Christ

• Not in Our Name Project, National Anti-War/Social-Justice network
Two-Edged Sword Incorporated, We are Defenders of Rights

• Women in Black Asheville, North Carolina, Weekly public silent vigil mourning violence

• Palestine Solidarity Committee Seattle, direct action, education for public awareness.

• Interfaith Peace-Builders, Israel/Palestine Delegations - Education & Advocacy in US

• Action Center For Justice, Dedicated to abolishing war, racism and injustice

• Rose Gardens For Peace, American Indian organization promoting peace in Lebanon

• Vancouver for Peace, working for peace, justice and nonviolence

• Forum For Peace and Justice

• Green Party, USA: understands that there can never be any peace without justice.

• Sound Nonviolent Opponents of War (SNOW), coalition of neighborhood groups and organizations

• http://www.wearewideawake.org, Third Intifada: Nonviolent Resistance +Truth

• Women in Black, Tacoma , In silent public mourning, we urge Peace

• Women in Black - Detroit, We are women of varied ethnic and racial heritages who gather to oppose the use of violence and terror as a means to political ends

• Jews for a Free Palestine,

• Women in Black and Western Carolinians for Peace and Justice

• Poets Against War

• Peace Coalition of Southern Illinois.

• MidEast: JustPeace, Work to educate and change US/Israeli policies.

• Tampa Bay Campaign/Films For Justice In Palestine

• Howard County Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation

• Arab American Institute, We are for democracy and peace for all individuals

• Brudging Consultancy Services, Diversity and Management Development Training Company

• Reapalife, Pan-African organization opposed to colonialism, neocolonialism, and Eurocentrism

• American Arab Anti Discrimination Committee Phoenix, Concerned citizens defending yours and our rights

• Peace Action Youngstown for a Sane World, truth to power; educate, motivate, ORGANIZE!

• Women's Advocacy Organization, WAO is a CSUS campus club

• RHFACTOR - Rock Hill For ACTion to Organize Resistance,

• DeKalb Interfaith Network for Peace and Justice, Dedicated to ending war, peace, and justice

• Break the Silence, Art & Culture to support resistance & mobilize solidarity.

• WESPAC Foundation, We are a peace and justice action network.

• US Peace Council

• Peace Action, country's largest peace group with 100,000 members

• Carolina Peace Resource Center, Mideast Issues Coordinator for Carolina Peace

• Aiken Peace, Local peace group, affiliate of Carolina Peace

• Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition/Atlanta, Network of community, faith, and student organizations and individuals

• Syracuse Peace Council, Grassroots peace and social justice organization.

• MSA West, A coalition of Muslim Student Associations across the West Coast

• Global Exchange, U.S. based International Human Rights Organization

• Committees of Correspondence for Democracy & Socialism,

• ICCNC, Islamic Cultural Center of Northern California

• Monterey County Citizens for Middle East Peace, A grassroots, multifaith organization to affect U.S. policy

• Sitkans for Peace and Justice, We organize peace activities in Sitka, Alaska

• Jeannette Rankin Peace Center, Local non-profit working to build a non-violent, socially just and sustainable world.

• CODEPINK: Women for Peace, Women's movement working for global peace and human rights

• Boston Coalition for Palestinian Rights, change US policy towards Israel/Palestine/region

• Women in Black-Los Angeles, WIB-LA supports justice and peace in the Mideast

• Brooklyn Parents for Peace, Brooklyn residents, including parents and non-parents

• Not In My Name, Predominantly Jewish, Chicago-based, anti-occupation group

• Codepink Pittsburgh, Coordinator Codepink Pittsburgh

• Colorado Palestine Solidarity Campaign, works steadily to advance the cause of justice for the Palestinian people.

• Out Against War: LGBT & Friends Coalition for Peace & Justice, Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender antiwar group

• Islamic Development Group, A Community Education Group

• Progressive Democrats/Santa Monica Mountains, Progressive Democrats/Santa Monica Montains is a chapter of Progressive Democrats of America dedicated to ending war and electing pro-peace Democrats

• Bethlehem (NY) Neighbors for Peace, Albany NY area peace group: www.bethlehemforpeace.org

• Unitarian Church - Portland, Oregon,

• Alameda Peace Network, Devoted to finding nonviolent conflict resolution

• Pax Christi Will County, Will County Chapter of Catholic Peace Organization

• BIZART, DEDICATED TO PEACE, FREEDOM AND JSUTICE FOR PALESTINIANS AND LEBANESE.

• WIAMEP: Washington Interfaith alliance for Middle East Peace, Interfiath organization seeking peace with justice

• Esperanza Peace and Justice Center, cultural arts/social justice regional organization

• Philadelphia Regional Anti-War Network, PRAWN Opposes the War on Iraq

• Veterans for Peace, Pensacola, Florida, Chapter 135, Former military members now working for Peace

• EMERGENCY COMMITTEE TO DEFEND CONSTITUTIONAL WELFARE RIGHTS, Executive Director & International Representative, ECDCWR--USA

• Northwest VEG, Compassionate Living Grounded in Vegetarian Choices

• St. Louis Branch, Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, International organization of women to promote peace

• Portland Peaceful Response Coalition, Grassroots organization working for peace through justice.

• pdxjustice Media Productions, Community radio and television production organization.

• Marin Friends Meeting, As Quakers, we support non-violence everywhere.

• split britches theater company, Lesbian Performance Company devoted to new writing

• Kalamazoo Nonviolent Opponents of War, We oppose violence, militarism, and military occupation

• Court St Joseph #139, Catholic Daughters of the Americas, Christian Women Who Support Peace

• Idaho Peace Coalition, volunteers dedicated to compassionate and nonviolent action

• Salina People for Peace, Co-moderator for Peace and Justice

• World Can't Wait!, working to Drive out the Bush Regime

• Cambridge United for Justice with Peace, peace & justice community group of UJP

• Salem-Palestine Solidarity Group for Peace & Justice, Oregon activists working for justice in Palestine.

• PeaceVermont, Peace and justice organization in central Vermont

• Every Church A Peace Church, Promoting a registry lising of nonviolent churches.

• After Downing Street, Coalition for peace and accountability

• Bubbes & Zaydes (grandparents) for Peace in the Middle East, faith based activists for justice

• Maine Haiti Solidarity, Active for justice in Haiti

• Committee for peace in israel and Palestine (CoPIP)

• Middle East Research and Information Project

• N. C. Peace Action.

• Culturally Speaking, Building bridges between Muslims and larger community.

• Vermonters for a Just Peace in Palestine/Israel, Concerned Vermonters Against Israeli Occupation

• Citizens for Justice in the Middle East--Kansas City, CJME educates/lobbies for M.E. justice/peace

• Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights, Working to end the Israeli occupation

• Student Peace Action Network, Students/youth organizing for peace and justice.

• LA Jews for Peace.

• Lakeshore Peacemakers, We are peaceseeking locally and globally.

• USC Students for Justice in Palestine, Campus organization dedicated to spreading awareness.

• SUSTAIN-Philly: Stop US Tax Aid to Israel Now!, Local Philadelphia Palestine Solidarity group focused on US Aid to Israel

The response of Mark Lance to these posts was interesting. He said that he had "moved on to the next issue." Of course he has. He has no arguments are hold up to debate in this one. He is a coward who can't debate using facts.

As with all great American institutions, they are built, directly or indirectly, with the fruits of capitalism. Where does Georgetown get its money if not from "The Machine?" It may have struggled at the beginning but as the wheels of capitalism grew, so did Georgetown. What's your major, theology? And where exactly do you plan on using your education once you graduate... Darfur?

I'm sorry Mark, I should have done a little research before I replied to your post. I thought you were a student at Georgetown. Anyway, my point is that you and Georgetown have profitted heavily from capitalism as have most, if not all, great educational institutions.

This article is nothing but left wing nonsense. To argue that white people should "shut up" and concede to Mexican and minority radicals on immigration because we allegedly "stole" America is a display of supreme ignorance of American and world history. This article amounts to an anti-white, anti-American hit piece written by an ideological hardliner. Criticizing minorities must not be in vogue on the G-town campus. Doing so might cause one to lose their admittance ticket to all the trendy parties hosted by guilt ridden and brainless white liberals.

Perhaps Mark Lance isn't aware that virtually every nation on earth was founded by violent conquest and genocide. The beloved and angelic North American Indians were beset by internecine and inter tribal warfare, practiced slavery and cannibalism, and suffered from disease and hunger before the wicked white man landed on these shores. There's also evidence that small bands of Europeans named the Clovis people existed in America thousands of years ago but were exterminated by the peace loving "native" Americans.

Every race has the capacity to commit great evil and all have during the course of their history, not just white people. It seems that one must take a vow of left wing political radicalism and mental midgetry to be admitted to Georgetown these days.

Well, I suppose I'm going back on what I said, but since the board has been taken over by white supremacists I wanted to offer a couple points for any GU students who are still bothering to follow. First, these comments are generally coming from people who follow two web sites: American Renaissance, and Stormfront (logo: White Power World WIde). Have a look. It will show you the underbelly of America. Both posted at least part of the article, and it generated a great deal of vitriol. In itself, this is a good thing, because it is making these people show their true colors.

Of course the overwhelming majority of what you have seen is simply abuse, name calling, and racist ranting. But there are a couple consistent themes in the abuse that are worth noting.

First, I never suggested that whites were worse than other racial groups. The historical points I made are all accurate -- indeed, completely uncontroversial -- but there are many many crimes in history. THere is little doubt that genocides by Europeans were worse in total numbers than crimes by others, but that is largely a result of superior technology. The point was that no one is pure here. No one has some sort of moral right to this land, or any other. So where does that leave us? One can either reject morality -- say that we won, let everyone else suffer -- or accept it, and try to think about the conditions of everyone with love and compassion. Similarly, one can reject political strategy and continue to fight against other working people -- notice that all the folks writing in assume things about my class background, and identify as working class whites -- or one can try to forge international solidarity and resist the forces that genuinely oppress people.

Second, I hoped that my readers were bright enough to undersand that the remark about a council of indigenous elders was not a serious policy proposal. I thought I had made that clear enough. I wanted folks to think about the fact that the lives of everyone in the hemisphere -- and increasingly the world -- are controlled by decisions made in Washington, and in corporate boardrooms. I wanted them to contrast that with the idea of a group of indigenous elders making decisions or everyone. Of the two, I would pick the latter in an instant, but of course the goal is for everyone to have a say on decisions that affect their lives. And decisions made in the US affects the lives of people all over the world. (I gather that the strength of the reaction to my "dream" indicates that it did have its effect, even if some folks missed the point.)

Finally, a few people were bothered by my use of a colorful word. Since I hear it pretty much constantly in just about every context, I think it might be time to get over aversion to a word that -- unlike certain other words -- is not actually used to denigrate a group of people. But if people really were offended by that, I apologize. As for shutting up, look folks -- whites, especially white men, especially upper class American white men, dominate discourse world wide. Yeah, I'm one of them. And I spend a lot of time trying to help others find a voice and facilitate their getting it out. But the domination is obvious. Of course that doesn't mean that someone else should dominate. It means that others should be heard. Again, I hoped that a little reversal situation would make people think about that.

Finally, for those GU studens who are horrified at the racist garbage being written on this site, remember that these guys are the fringe. They matter, and they are dangerous, but they are a fringe. The real issues are the structural ones that determine the lives of people. Racism is far more extensive than racists, and end of the day, in the immortal words of Bob Dylan, these folks are "only pawns in their game." (Check it out if the song is unfamiliar to you. It is still relevant.)

So, next week I will be bashed for totally different reasons.

So long,
Mark